Anti-Racist & Proud @ Bristol Pride Parade

by tsangel - edl Wed Jul 04, 2012 01:02

As a transsexual EDL member I find it disgusting that the organisers of gay pride are excluding members of the LGBT community because they don't agree with their views.

Gay pride has always been advertised as a celebration of diversity & yet you have laid down a demand that anyone who's opinion diversifies from the organisers then they will be excluded & thus the pride celebration has shown it does not stand for diversity.
When I came out as a TS early last year I didn't realise that I had to follow a rigid world view set down by the LGBT community.

The organisers have shown themselves to be a fascist group as any view that differs from theirs must be silenced & excluded, transitioning is one of the hardest things a person can go through, i've been looking forward to attending the gay pride parade in the hope that I could meet local people who understand what a difficult time i've been facing over the last 2 years, from persecution by employers, abuse in the streets & being treated like a lepor by my own family, the only group of people that have known me since before I came out & have accepted & supported me are the EDL,

I hold no grudge against the LGBT community, in fact I wish you all the best for the day, my disgust will be saved for the organisers who wish to dictate what a member of the community is allowed to believe

by Sero Wed Jul 04, 2012 08:06

And yet its OK for you and your EDL ilk to want to oppress other minority groups in the UK? Waaagh waaagh Im being discriminated against because I want to discriminate against other people. Sorry if I can find fuck all sympathy for you.

by hmmm... Wed Jul 04, 2012 08:31

Well, I m sorry that the group that has chosen to support you excludes/demonises muslims & smashes up their shops. taking your comment at face value, which is hard to do to some extent, I 'd have to challenge your notion of "accepting diversity", which seems to somehow exclude a part of our community, while excepting those who seek to stir up trouble within it,

by No gods Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:29

"the only group of people that have known me since before I came out & have accepted & supported me are the EDL" If thats true then it says a lot.
Ok so it sounds unlikely.
Until you remember Pym Fortuyn.

by ts angel - EDL Wed Jul 04, 2012 20:38

For those who think that a section of the muslim population doesn't hate gay people have a look at the link.
I chose the link from Pink News so you can't claim it's right wing propoganda.

Am I supposed to sit by & silently accept this?

Regarless of what you think about the EDL they are the only group in this country attempting to bring this to public view, for years there has been an elephant in the room, thanks to the EDL people are at least starting to accept that the elephant exists & discuss what can be done about the problem.

I applaud any muslim or left wing groups that oppose this view & would be pefectly happy to work closely with them to tackle the problem & raise awareness of LGBT rights.
The simple fact is that a portion of muslims hate anyone in the LGBT community, the refusal of people to accept that is staggeringly short sighted.

by ts angel - EDL Wed Jul 04, 2012 20:47

@sero

A sijmple question for you, what race are muslims?

Muslims are followers of a religion, not a race

The person arrested for posting anti-gay stickers around Tower Hamlets was white.
I guess that blows your racism slur out of the water

by Jane Wed Jul 04, 2012 23:23

Ts angel...if you are serious about your concerns you should ask your EDL 'friends' to call off their demonstration. Exactly why are the EDL choosing to march the same day as Pride? Sometimes you have to take sides, and it looks like your political radar has failed you.

by Roz Thu Jul 05, 2012 07:33

I doubt the EDL were aware of the Pride march when they planned theirs. They have nothing to gain by having it on the same day.

BTW I am not an EDL member and despise the far right. This includes the Islamofascists and Christofascists who are no better than the Nazis (if you don't believe me ask any Iranian who fled the Ayatollah's regime, or the Saudi women who have no human rights at all. Ask any Ugandan gay person). Evil is not a preserve of white people, and it is not racist to voice concerns about fundamentalist religions.

It is unfortunate that the original intention of the EDL (which was not racist at all) has been hijacked by knuckledragging chavs in jackboots.

by No gods Thu Jul 05, 2012 08:08

"There is no threat to Bristol, or Britain, from Islamification" says Boyd on the other thread. He obviosuly has no idea how complacent this sounds to many women and non straight people who are already living under sharia and the fear of attack by religious extremists in this country, and other places in Europe, as well as Jewish people who are regularly targetted by the hard core jihadi nutters.

***The forces of religious extremism and ultra orthodoxy, whatever branch of Abrahamism they follow are really on the march over the whole world now and gaining strength all the time. ***
Just look at America where they are passing all sorts of laws against women, forcing them back into second class citizens and baby breeding machines.

Maybe the EDL people should just broaden their demonstrations into resistance to theocracy of all kinds, Islamic, Christian or Ultra Orthodox Judaism. That would show what side they're really on. Hahaha can they do that?

by Boyd Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:28

What you describe is not Islamification.

'Islamification' is the process of a society's conversion to the religion of islam.

There is no danger of Bristol or Britain adopting Sharia Law, because such an overwhelming majority of the population wouldn't put up with it, and are in fact massively against it.

It's never going to happen, so to build a hate campaign on the back of such an empty threat (to justify a racist campaign against South Asian immigration) is as nasty as building a campaign on the idea that Muslims are more likely to be paedophiles, when the evidence seems to show that Far Right extremists are more danger to our children than Muslims

http://bitly.com/bundles/lutherblissett/p

http://edlnews.co.uk/index.php/featured-stories/9-the-e...hiles

by x Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:35

'as well as Jewish people who are regularly targetted by the hard core jihadi nutters'

As a jewish person, I've never had any problem with any member of the Muslim community here in Bristol, or for that matter anywhere else I've lived in the UK.

The original purpose of the EDL was to give football hooligans who'd been banned from every ground in the country different groups of people to go and fight. Not some crusade against imaginary groups.

by No gods Thu Jul 05, 2012 14:37

So Boyd and x are not bothered by religious fundamentalists.
Lucky you.
Hope you are right.

by I smell a pile of bull Thu Jul 05, 2012 15:05

So the EDL are full of transgender people, young Liberals, transexuals, who else, oh yes, Sikhs, probably Quaker socialists and Shia Islam mullahs too. Funny how this new rainbow alliance on the EDL parade in Bristol will be virtually indistinguishable from the Gay Pride march on the same day.

Not.

Anyone in touch with reality knows that the EDL marchers on the 14th will be the usual mix of boneheads, casuals and extreme right nazi politicos that were always at its heart. Do not be deceived.

by ts angel - EDL Thu Jul 05, 2012 17:12

For those of you who keep claiming that we've "chosen" the 14th to hijack the pride parade should do some research.
The date we originaly wanted our demo to be on was the 21st but due to the harbour festival being on that day the police & Bristol city council told us that the demo had to be moved to a different date. The date they offered us for the demo was the 14th.

We didn't choose to have our demo clash with the pride parade, if we had our way then our demo would be held on a day with no other major events taking place.

by x Thu Jul 05, 2012 17:59

If you are so worried about religious extremism can I suggest you go somewhere that it's a genuine problem. Tehran, Tel Aviv and Vatican City spring to mind. Bristol doesn't.

Can you really not understand that a group holding a protest in a city where the 'problem' they are protesting about doesn't exist doesn't exist seems somewhat odd?

And that when the same group has a history of providing a platform for Neo-Nazis to attack ethnic minorities people are concerned that this will happen again, and so are convinced that the EDL march is a bad thing, which should be vocally opposed.

by queer antifascist Thu Jul 05, 2012 18:58

It may come as a shock to some, but... some head honcho at the EDL (English Defence League) is really quite smart. Smart enough to recognise that there is a general repulsion towards fascism. Smart enough to realise that supporting racism, sexism or homophobia is a pathetic way to seek approval. That's why we see the EDL are falling over themselves to try not to appear racist, to claim to be supporting women's rights and gay rights. They wave
banners stating "Black and White Unite", they claim "All Races and Religions are Welcome in the EDL". They are trying so hard to distance themselves from the abhorrent hatred spewed by the likes of the BNP and National Front. But the truth is that the EDL are a blinkered alliance of hate-mongerers, claiming support for human rights as a devious means of attacking Muslims. It does not take much exposure to actual EDL supporters to see how far from reality the EDL's grand claims are.

The EDL are clueless about Islam. They are a group of racists intent on attacking Muslims. They try to whip up fear with a series of lies about Islam. Fear does not serve anyone. Fear damages us all. But the EDL spread lies about Muslims so that Hindus, Sikhs, Jews will support a group of racists, so that non-Muslim women will turn on their Muslim sisters, so that gay Muslims will be attacked within their own LGBT communities. The EDL want people to believe their lies and hate. They want you to turn against your own society and communities. But they are not that smart because their message of fear and hate just doesn't make sense...

The EDL says it is not Racist
They say their problem is with Islam and not Muslims, but Islamophobia has a direct effect on Muslims and means that Muslims will be targetted. This is not some abstract ideas that the EDL are targetting, it is real people. The Muslim population in the UK is mostly made up of people of African and Asian descent, so attacks on Muslims cannot be separated from ideas of racism.

The EDL says it is not Violent
Tell that to the people who had their businesses attacked by EDL supporters after their demonstration in Luton. Or those that had their car windows smashed in Dudley. Tell that to the people who were injured at the protest in Bolton, or those caught up in violent clashes in Birmingham. If the EDL are so peaceful then why do they target Muslim neighbourhoods trying to provoke a response to their racist rhetoric?

The EDL has a Women's Division
This is an attempt by the EDL to use the guise of protecting women's rights as a weapon to attack Islam. The EDL promote and ignorant and racist view of women's roles in Islam to create fear and suspicion, and ignore the long tradition of strong Muslim women.
The EDL claim that they want to protect Muslim women, but you can bet they've never asked a single Muslim woman her opinion.

Their 1940s macho attitude is as outdated as their 1940s fascism!

The EDL has an LGBT Division
This is a cynical attempt to co-opt gay rights as a weapon to attack Islam. Islam is not more a threat to gay rights than any other group; in the U.S., it was Christian groups who led the homphobic opposition to Proposition 8 (the right for same-sex couples to marry in California), and we can see the same happening here in the UK. This does not mean that all Christians are homophobic.

The EDL are ignoring the many LGBT Muslims and their Muslim supporters in the UK and beyond.

The EDL argue that secularism is the way to secure rights for LGBT people, but look at the situation in France where a clampdown on the rights of religious expression also means restricted LGBT rights.

The EDL are Opportunists
The EDL say it is "the only group in the UK that is taking action to defend gay people from the threats of execution coming from the "Sharia judges" in the UK". But where in the UK are gay rights actually threatened by "Sharia law"? The EDL are using LGBT rights for their own agenda: violent Islamophobia. For centuries, the Right has waged a violent campaign against gay rights: now suddenly they see a chance to further their racist cause, they change their tune. They are opportunist racists.

It's the same old story. Every age has its scapegoat who are attacked and demonised. In the 30s it was the Jews who were seen as the enemy within. Then in the 50s it was the Communists. In the 70s, the virulently homophobic culture, aggravated by far-right groups, branded all gays as "paedophiles". In the 80s there was fear-mongering about Bangladeshi and Kashmiri people. In the 00s it was the Poles and Lithuanians who were supposedly going to take our jobs. Today, because of a virulently Islamaphobic culture and the behaviour of a tiny minority of people, Muslims are being similarly branded a threat.

People are sold lies and told to live in fear. People are threatened and made to live in fear. We refused this politics then and we refuse it now.

The Real Threat
The real threat to queer and gender equality comes from government cuts to HIV prevention services and to support for those living with HIV/AIDS. The real threat comes from the closure of rape crisis centres, the centralisation of domestic violence services, cuts in mental healh and housing provision, as well as direct cuts to key services offered by LGBT and women's centres up and down the country. The real threat comes from women and queers being incarcerated and deported when fleeing violence in other countries. The real threat comes from dividing communities through prejudice and scarce resources.

We live in times where the language of gay and women's rights are being used in the service of racism and Islamaphobia. We resist feminist and queer language being used to promote racial hatred as it masks the homophobia and sexism that exist across races and religions, across all sections of society, and all parts of the globe. We resist a queer-feminist visibility that is a racist imperialist visibility.

Don't let the EDL co-opt gay rights and women's rights into racist hatred.

by Boyd Thu Jul 05, 2012 21:21

Well said Queer Antifascist!

EVERYONE TO THE STREETS ON THE 14TH!

by bob Fri Jul 06, 2012 14:49

@ts angel-EDL

don't you find being called an EDL 'angel' slightly patronising?

by Mr Average Sat Jul 07, 2012 00:18

I like to think I'm middle of the road in my politics. I'm an average man with average intelligence, living an average life. I don't go on marches, and don't rant and rave about much.

I started to take an interest in Islam a few years ago After the EDL started to get known in the media for it's anti Islam views, and it has been an interesting learning curve for me. The long and the short of it was I researched Islam from both sides of the divide, going to Mosques and speaking to Moslem’s, entering into forum discussions and asking questions about the detail of Islam. Simple questions were answered to start with, but the more pointed questions of Islam’s detractors were either “politicians replies” or ignored and even lied about. The more “radical” types came across as the more honest ones in what they would say in reply to my questions.

I then started to talk to the detractors of Islam the EDL, BNP, who for the most part knew only little about the subject as I assume most ordinary people would, and like most working class people were not very good at explaining it to me. So I started to read the blogs of Jihad Watch, and Gates of Vienna.

Boyd stated:
There is no danger of Bristol or Britain adopting Sharia Law, because such an overwhelming majority of the population wouldn't put up with it, and are in fact massively against it.

That is totally untrue, there are over 100 practising Sharia courts in the UK which had legal status in the law, that means when a decision has been made in one of these courts it is binding under UK legislation.

I've never been to an EDL march, but I'm going to go and listen to what they have to say, because it's my choice and a lawful one. I may end up agreeing with them and I may not but I will base my decision on what I make of it, not because of inaccurate comments meant to look like fact as Boyd made by the sentence listed above. I would like to hear the whole truth not just one politically motivated one as it seems to be above.

Or the comment made by Bob as to the issue of being called an angle as being patronising. I have often called women “angels” and not one of them had taken offence at it, and in most cases take it as the compliment it is meant to be.

I have come to know may Muslim some of whom I like and some of whom I do not, but the same can be said about any other political group and the people that support them, but and this is as I see it the main point, I can question them about their beliefs speak out about them so why not Islam or any other religion ?

No doubt I'll see some of you there.

Mr Average

by Boyd Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:20

Here's what 'Mr Average' is talking about, if you read it you'll find he's left out some pretty significant details.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-big-....html

Like other faiths have exactly the same systems (e.g the Jewish Beth Din courts), its not a 'muslim thing'.

Like the system is a VOLUNTARY arbitration thing designed for marriage and business disputeS. If you don't want to THERE IS NO REASON WHY YOU WOULD CHOOSE TO USE IT, AND YOU WOULD NEVER HAVE TO.

I don't support it. I don't like religions. Any religions, personally. I think the institutions and prejudices that have grown up around them have done a lot of damage to the world. The examples in the article about women losing their kids if they marry 'the wrong person', for instance.

But i don't believe that 'Islamification' has any more chance in this country of succeeding than 'Judeification', 'Hindification' or we're all going to heaven on a frikkin Alpha Course-ication. The reason is that 90+% of this country would never agree to submit to Sharia Law - however much frizzing of the edges you do, you can't escape that fact. Sharia Law is a culturally agreed code of conduct, like 'straighteners' in the gangster community, or handfasting in the hippy community· It is a threat to those that suffer from it, as those mentioned in the article, but it is not a threat to 'Bristol' or 'Britain'.

A much bigger threat, and one proven by history, time and time again, is the rise of Fascism in periods of economic instability. The EDL are a fascist organisation of street fighters - this has been demonstrated time and time again.

Fascism must be beaten, in public, as its only weapon is fear. When these 'defenders of the realm' are exposed for what they are - thugs and social misfits, who feel left behind by society - they lose their power, and their conservative apologists like 'Mr Average' here have to go back to their muttering on pub stools and wacko-sites like the ones he mentions.

EVERYONE TO THE STREETS ON THE 14TH!

by Mr Average Sat Jul 07, 2012 17:06

Hello Boyd and all,

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. Yes I did leave out the whole of the 1996 Act and how it relates to other religions as well. Sorry for not being detailed enough for you. Unfortunately I will only deal with the points you have raised and not make this a full blown thesis, once again leaving out possible significant detail relating to how it could stretch to effecting polar bears in the global warming scam, or other straw men arguments.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-big-....html

"Like other faiths have exactly the same systems (e.g the Jewish Beth Din courts), its not a 'muslim thing'."

Indeed the do have similar systems, and if the need ever comes to bringing this issue regarding other religious/political/social conversion groups arises, I will certainly make sure that I do so.

The last word used in that paragraph is the important one in this issue, as Jews do not look to convert on mass, as the Christian and Islamic political/religious groups do, neither do the other ones you listed. So the argument is irrelevant in this context, except as a possible red herring to the argument.

Christianity has lost it's power in things political. It's ability to control the population through fear, for the most part, and has gone through various reformations that has lead to it's declining power base. Islam has not had any reformations, and a look at the results of the “Arab Spring” shows Islam being re-imposed in it's fundamental root via the likes of the Muslim Brotherhood. (I would be very afraid to be a secularist or Christian Coptic in Egypt at the moment).

Here is a link of UK Copts and the way forward in Egypt as it appears to be going now:

http://www.copts.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&tas...mid=1 Of course just another wacko site with 10 million people relating to it in Egypt!

“Like the system is a VOLUNTARY arbitration thing designed for marriage and business disputeS. If you don't want to THERE IS NO REASON WHY YOU WOULD CHOOSE TO USE IT, AND YOU WOULD NEVER HAVE TO.”

You are right that the arbitration system is voluntary and both parties agree to use it, and no, I would not choose to use it as a woman or man for that matter. Unfortunately as a woman in a male dominated society surrounded by the trappings of a culture that you have grown up in the pressure to conform really does not leave you much choice do do otherwise. Here is a quote from the Guardian on the subject, I though I would use that paper as I'm sure every other one would be right wing fascism to you.

“There is an assumption that those who attend sharia courts do so voluntarily and that unfair decisions can be challenged. Since much of sharia law is contrary to British law and public policy, in theory they would be unlikely to be upheld in a British court. In reality, women are often pressured by their families into going to these courts and adhering to unfair decisions and may lack knowledge of their rights under British law. Moreover, refusal to settle a dispute in a sharia court could lead to to threats, intimidation or isolation.”

Full article here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2010/jul/05/sharia-law-re...ourts

Agreeing out appeals to the court

"The object of arbitration is to obtain the fair resolution of disputes by an impartial tribunal without unnecessary delay or expense." We would expect the parties to agree that the arbitrator does not have to give reasons for his award and there is then no possibility at all of an appeal to the courts. There can be no doubt that the buck can be made to stop at the arbitrator so choose him wisely.

http://www.endispute.co.uk/cliff/auaa.htm

.

But i don't believe that 'Islamification' has any more chance in this country of succeeding than 'Judeification', 'Hindification' or we're all going to heaven on a frikkin Alpha Course-ication. The reason is that 90+% of this country would never agree to submit to Sharia Law - however much frizzing of the edges you do, you can't escape that fact. Sharia Law is a culturally agreed code of conduct, like 'straighteners' in the gangster community, or handfasting in the hippy community· It is a threat to those that suffer from it, as those mentioned in the article, but it is not a threat to 'Bristol' or 'Britain'.

How much of the meat in this country is now produced using the Halal method of bleeding an animal to death instead of pre-stun methods that was the normal method and most people are not aware of it?

And just like Commercial law, failure to re-butt is taken as agreement, hence the vast majority are now having Halal meat as the norm... sharia under way for the majority.

Islamic law being introduced without anyone being given a choice or being aware that they are subject to it

A much bigger threat, and one proven by history, time and time again, is the rise of Fascism in periods of economic instability. The EDL are a fascist organisation of street fighters - this has been demonstrated time and time again.

I have no real idea if you are right on this or not. The only thing I can say is that their articles on their site make for interesting reading and lack the emotional threats that the likes of “hope not hate” do with words like “smash the EDL scum”. One certainly is fascist in the way it enforces it's doctrine.

Fascism must be beaten, in public, as its only weapon is fear. When these 'defenders of the realm' are exposed for what they are - thugs and social misfits, who feel left behind by society - they lose their power, and their conservative apologists like 'Mr Average' here have to go back to their muttering on pub stools and wacko-sites like the ones he mentions.

Muttering on a bar stool is something I don't do, not being a drinker, but research I do enjoy doing and getting into the detail matters, just like forming my own opinion on facts, not peer pressure as you appear to be exerting here, or quips designed to undermine the actual issues.

EVERYONE TO THE STREETS ON THE 14TH!

Thank you for the invite to the streets on the 14th, I will take you up on it, and hope you don't try to beat me up for talking to EDL supporters and asking them question, as well as talking to those that oppose them and asking them questions as well. But most of all for assuming that I can make my own mind up as to what I want to listen to.
I hope that’s ok with you?

by Act or perish Sat Jul 07, 2012 20:12

Mr Average :

"That is totally untrue, there are over 100 practising Sharia courts in the UK which had legal status in the law, that means when a decision has been made in one of these courts it is binding under UK legislation."

The use of sharia law might well be on on the increase in the UK :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16522447

However as a Civitas report states in 2009 many of the courts might well be unofficial ones operating in mosques and so are not binding under UK legislation :

http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jun/29/sharia-courts-...laims

by Mr Average Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:54

Thank you for posting the link to the Civitas document. It is an interesting one, and surprisingly reinforces a great deal of what I have learnt so far on the subject.
Official, recognised, or not, the following information addresses the issue far better than I can word it. Taken from the source document you supplied, and deals with the issues you seem not to want to address.

The single point you picked me up on, is confirmed in the following paragraph:

“in the arbitration agreement including, of course, sharia law and the ultimate ‘judgement’ of the arbitrator can be registered with the civil courts and enforced in the same way as if it were a judgement of the ordinary civil courts. It is this aspect of civil courts enforcing arbitration judgements based on sharia principles which has led to suggestions that sharia law has been given ‘official’ recognition.
However it is important to understand that the Arbitration Act does not extend to all areas of law: it does not cover criminal disputes and it does not extend to divorce or childcare cases, which is where the problems arise with the views of the LCJ: ‘there is no reason why principles of sharia law, or any other religious code, should not be the basis for mediation’. “

The paragraph above points to the difference between Mediation and Arbitration. It does not deal with the matter of once mediation has been undertaken in a Shara court with the pro male standing of Islamic law to a Divorce and whom a child will live with, it then means a civil case will need to undertaken to challenge said decision, with the legal cost and social pressures that such a challenge will cause.

Page 40/41 of the report goes on to say:

“Leyton’s Islamic Sharia Law Council, like other sharia courts, deals in family law. Ninety‐five per cent of its requests for arbitration have dealt with issues of divorce. This seems a high figure, since it leaves out marriage as such, financial and business matters, or judgements on matters like veiling, the alms‐tax, sharia ‐compliant banking and mortgages, endowments, inheritance, and more—all of which are staples of the online fatwa sites that function as invisible sharia courts in the UK and internationally (see below).
Nevertheless, there can be no doubt that matters of personal and family law dominate the consultations that take place in British Muslim courts. Marriage and divorce are certainly central to this, but judgements made in this sector may touch on and can take us into sensitive and even illegal or semi‐legal territory. Marriage in itself invites rulings on whether the bride may be underage or not; whether the husband may have sex with his wife even if she is underage; whether a husband may marry more than one wife; how much the dowry should be; and whether the bride’s consent is needed in what is regarded as a civil contract between her male guardian (father, grandfather, uncle, etc.) and the groom. “

And lets not forget the legal/moral issue of something stated and not rebutted stands!

Page 20/21/22 goes on to say:

There are three concerns about sharia courts that purport to be systems of arbitration. First, voluntary arbitration is only acceptable if both parties genuinely consent. There is a good deal of intimidation of women in Muslim communities and the genuine consent of women could not be accepted as a reality. Second, women are not equal in sharia law. The Koran calls for witnesses in legal cases and says that if a male witness cannot be found two women will do. Effectively the voice of a woman is half that of a man. Third, religious guidance is effective because individuals fear God or wish to remain in good standing with fellow believers. In our legal system no punishments can be applied to individuals who fail to live up to religious require‐ments other than the social pressure of disapproval. The pressure we exert when we express our disapproval of other members of a church or any voluntary association is unavoidable and an accepted part of life within a liberal society so long as we are free to leave any association that goes too far. Under most interpretations of Islam a person who leaves the faith is an apostate who can be put to death. While this threat remains, it cannot be accepted that sharia councils are nothing more than independent arbitrators guided by faith. The reality is that for many Muslims, sharia courts are in practice part of an institutionalised atmosphere of intimidation, backed by the ultimate sanction of a death threat.
The underlying problem is that sharia law reflects male‐dominated Asian and Arabic cultures. It cannot therefore be accepted as a legally valid basis even for settling private disagreements in a country like ours, where our law embodies the equal legal status of everyone, regardless of race, gender or religion. Our system is based on moral and legal equality or it is nothing. Moreover, further encouragement of sharia law, far from helping integration, will undermine the efforts of British Muslims struggling to evolve a version of Islam consistent with a tolerant and pluralistic society.
A great battle is being fought between rival groups for the support of fellow Muslims. We have become familiar with the groups who direct their hatred against Western civilisation, but the most numerous are fundamentalist rather than violent. Their aim is to prevent Muslims who live in the West from falling under the influence of Christianity or secular liberalism. The leaders of fundamentalist factions want Muslims to owe their allegiance to their particular interpretation of Islam, whether it be Wahhabi, Salafi, or any of the countless other doctrines whose adherents are convinced of their own righteousness. For them, loyalty to any national system of liberal‐democratic government is no more than a rival for the affections of followers. Freedom of conscience is not in their vocabulary. Such leaders are accustomed to living in Muslim countries where the powers of government can be used to enforce compliance and they plan to use British law to coerce Muslims into leading lives separate from the British liberal mainstream. If we permit the growing intrusion of sharia courts to continue, British Muslims will in effect be subject to the same coercive pressures to conform as they would in an Asian village. Liberalism has always been tolerant of a plurality of lifestyles, but only if they are freely chosen.

Not wanting to quote passage after passage from the text you have supplied, below is an example of the issues that cause me concern in regarding wanting to ask questions both to Islamic scholars and those that argue against Islamic doctrine.

Page 15 of report states: On Muslim Attitudes

But some of these majorities are marginal. And there are majorities that clash with British cultural values: 51 per cent agree that a Muslim woman may not marry a non‐Muslim, 61 per cent think homo‐sexuality should be made illegal. Although they are in a minority, those opposed to reform of the sharia make up a hefty 39 per cent. More importantly, there is a visible trend from greater tolerance among the older age groups to an increase in hardline attitudes among young people, particularly the 16‐20 year‐old age band.

I have no problem correcting my incorrect understandings of the detail of an issue, which I thank you for pointing out to me, but, perhaps you will address some if not all of the issues I have raised in this thread, as I see you have not re-butted any of them, which the very paper you quoted to me not only backs up but gives greater detail to my points of concern.

I would suggest that it would be a good idea for everyone to read the paper in full, as Civitas is regarded as a Liberal well respect think tank to the majority of people, and I assume that includes the Guardian reading people that express opinions on this thread.

As I have quoted previously above, for the majority, not to re-butt a point is to concede it.

Mr Average

by Linda Rivera Tue Aug 07, 2012 14:48

I was very happy to be told that the police in one Southern California city would dress in plain clothes and hang around outside gay bars, and if someone attempted to harm gays, the police would immediately jump into action. Human rights for all! YES!
It grieves me to see pics of gay teenagers being hung to death in Iran. It is disgraceful and inhuman that gays in Palestinian Authority controlled areas are forced to escape to inside the green line, Israel, for their safety. Israel PROTECTS gays!

I am disgusted that vile women-haters, UK leaders have allowed over 100 Islamic sharia law courts to operate in Britain. Under sharia, women are treated as inferior and DENIED their full rights. In Muslim countries, non-Muslims are persecuted and denied rights. EDL believe strongly that ALL people must have equality before the law! May we never lose our freedom!

EDL have spoken out strongly against the Muslim gangs of predator monsters who specifically target NON-Muslim British children who they rape, sexually enslave and force into prostitution. At least one desperate victim begged the police for help and was ignored. The horrific abuse continued. The excuse of the police was that they were afraid to be called racists so refused to help the children.

You will never know how much it means to Britain's sexually assaulted children, abused by Muslims, that EDL speaks out for them. It is a miracle; an amazing and wonderful thing, that there are people, the EDL, who actually care about them. May we never lose our freedom of speech and human rights! Please God, protect the children!

by Caravan to Portugal Tue Aug 07, 2012 17:42

EDL Officially Announce Ties To Zionist State of Israel

http://wideshut.co.uk/edl-officially-announce-ties-to-z...rael/